Macro N Cheese

Can you imagine granting personhood to AI entities? Well, some of us couldn’t imagine granting personhood to corporations. And yet... look how that panned out.In this episode, Steve talks with Duke law professor James Boyle about his new book, The Line: AI and the Future of Personhood. James explains the development of his interest in the topic; it began with the idea of empathy. (Then) moved to the idea of AI as the analogy to corporate personhood.  And then the final thing – and maybe the most interesting one to me – is how encounters with AI would change our conceptions of ourselves. Human beings have always tried to set ourselves as different from non-human animals, different from the natural universe.     Sentences no longer imply sentience. And since language is one of the reasons we set human beings up as bigger and better and superior to other things, what will that do to our sense of ourselves? And what would happen if instead of being a chatbot, it was actually an entit

Paul Gambles is back to help us unpack China's recent issuance of US dollar-denominated sovereign bonds in Saudi Arabia. Paul begins by setting up the historical context. He takes us back to the end of the second World War and the Bretton Woods agreement, designed to bring a new world order, putting the US dollar as the global funding currency. China’s move signals a challenge to the petrodollar system – providing nations with new avenues for financing as an alternative to dollar dependency. Paul looks at the Global South in light of China’s behavior, including the Belt and Road initiative. Its infrastructure projects in Asia or in Africa enable local countries to reduce their potential dollar exposure and instead have either equity or other exposures to China. According to Paul, this is already having effects in terms of U.S. policy and the U.S. economy. Putting the bond issuance in perspective, Paul says: I think China has indicated that it plans to issue about $

Rohan Grey, who taught us to understand money as a creature of law, is back for his tenth appearance on Macro N Cheese. Steve and Rohan dissect the humor and horror of the political landscape. They make a realistic assessment of the Biden administration and look at figures like Elon Musk and Ramaswamy as part of a new wave of governance setting out to undermine the fabric of federal institutions.  The conversation touches on the absurdity of contemporary American politics, where a ‘meme president’ can emerge amidst a cacophony of discontent and confusion. All this against a background of imperialist atrocities and genocide.  As always, Rohan warns against viewing political and economic developments through a simplistic lens and suggests a nuanced understanding of these realities within their historical context Rohan looks at the alternating and sometimes contradictory positions taken by conservatives and progressives on several issues. Judi

In a stunning reversal, the Democrat Party has announced plans to reconnect with its New Deal roots in hopes of regaining the trust of the working class. Haha just kidding! This week, Yeva Nersisyan joins Steve to cut through the cacophony of phony punditry trying to explain the 2024 election results. Spoiler alert: it’s economics. It’s always economics. Yeva points to the stark realities of inflation, highlighting the persistent rise in food and housing costs. She points out that while inflation is often cited as a primary concern, the real issue lies in how US economic policies have consistently failed to address the needs of the people, especially those at the lower end of the income scale. Voters are not dazzled by Wall Street’s success. The conversation goes into the failures of past administrations and takes a look at mistakes made during and after the height of the Covid pandemic. Promising policies were on the table, yet the monies were often spent in ways least

"Colonized people have the right to resist." Economist and friend of the podcast Fadhel Kaboub talks with Steve about the effects of global hegemony and the ongoing attempts to shift the balance of power. They look at BRICS, though it’s perhaps too soon to predict its ultimate outcome and influence. Fadhel argues that a true multipolar world cannot emerge without placing the Global South at the center of economic decision-making, challenging the existing economic domination by the US and other nations. The history of colonial exploitation continues to affect the resource-rich region.Fadhel also addresses the ways in which Israel is carrying out the US agenda in Gaza. He points out that the world’s reaction is being influenced by the ready availability of direct information via social media. "The world didn't start on October 7th. There was a world before that. And there is a colonial project that was being built in Gaza and Palestine. "Every colonial case we've seen in Africa and the rest

“A capitalist economy requires constant imperialist wars because it has to constantly suppress prices and wages and reorganize production in the global south around accumulation in the core. That is ultimately the system that we have to overcome.” Jason Hickel, who won our hearts a while back by accepting MMT, talks with Steve about the burning issue of our time. (No, not the US election, though they touch on the electoral system.) As much as Gaza is dominating social media, we must continue to stress its place in the capital order. Jason points us to Israel’s true role: sowing chaos and instability in the region.  The conversation covers the historical and ongoing imperialistic strategies of the U.S. and its reactions to the mid-century liberation movements of the Global South, placing US support for Israel's actions as part of a broader capitalist agenda to maintain control over the world's resources and labor markets. Jason looks at China’s domestic successes and how they hav

Author and labor studies professor Eric Blanc talks about worker-led union organizing and why it is superior to the dominant model of staff-intensive unionism.“You just can't get the type of mass movement we need by relying on staff.   Even the best staff.” Eric lays out some features of worker-to-worker organizing: Workers are training other workers in the skills they need for a successful union drive. Workers are self-organizing before they affiliate with a union. As a result, the relationship between worker and union is more of a partnership; not a relationship of deference. Workers have decision-making power for the drive. They decide on strategy, tactics, even, perhaps, a political stance.  “One of the crucial turning points... that forced Starbucks to come to the bargaining table earlier this year, was the union came out for very strong stance around Palestine and solidarity with Gaza. “And it created this knockoff effect that ended up leading to a mass

**Milestone 300! We dedicate this, the 300th weekly episode, to our loyal listeners, and we wish to recognize the valiant work of our underpaid podcast crew – correction: our unpaid podcast crew – who have put in thousands of hours editing audio, correcting transcripts, writing show notes, creating artwork, and posting promos on social media. To have the next 300 episodes delivered to your inbox as soon as they’re released, subscribe at realprogressives.substack.com  Project Censored has been a valuable resource for Macro N Cheese. This week, sociologist Andy Lee Roth talks with Steve about information gatekeeping by big tech through their use of AI algorithms to stifle diverse voices.  The discussion highlights historical and current instances of media censorship and looks at the monopolization of news distribution by corporate giants like Google, Facebook, and Twitter.   In an economic system that is fully privatized, trustworthy journalism is another casualty. News, which shou

**Our Substack brings every new episode of this podcast as well timely alerts about our book clubs and webinars and reminders for Tuesday night’s gatherings of Macro ‘n Chill. All this and more, straight to your inbox. Subscribe now: realprogressives.substack.com Recently, Steve appeared with host Sean St. Heart on Coup Save America, a weekly podcast committed to breaking through political rhetoric and focusing our attention on the core problems affecting our nation. The episode’s title was Exploring Modern Monetary Theory with Steve Grumbine, but of course it’s almost impossible to limit an MMT conversation to macroeconomics alone.From the Coup Save America show notes: “’Are Progressives like 8-bit robots walking into walls when it comes to understanding economics?’ “Today we welcome special guest Steve Grumbine, founder and CEO of the nonprofits Real Progressives and Real Progress in Action. Steve is here to tell us how Modern Monetary Theory could benefit the working class American – and why

If NIMBY is the classist rejection of affordable housing ("Not in my back yard”), then YIMBY is sold as the progressive counter to it: “Yes, in my back yard; because I believe affordable housing should be widely available, even in my own neighborhood.” But of course, housing development has nothing to do with the needs of the poor or the working class. It has nothing to do with the public purpose. Steve’s guest, political economist David Fields, explains: “YIMBY is yes to housing in my backyard, but housing for developers to extract profit from land value.  So build as much as possible within a given area and, in the end, extract as much as possible through rent extraction and land value appreciation. It's not, in my view, yes to actual affordable housing in my backyard to house working class folks. No, it's yes to luxury skyscrapers, luxury this, luxury that. Build as cheaply as possible for vested interests to maximize gain.” YIMBY’s want us to believe that sheer quantity will bring pric

The titans of capital aren’t just the obscenely wealthy. They are the directors of transnational finance companies; they manage the money of the obscenely wealthy.Steve’s guest, political sociologist Peter Phillips, is the author of Titans of Capital: How Concentrated Wealth Threatens Humanity. The titans, he says, have doubled their AUM (assets under management) in the past 5 years.“There's only 117 of them and they manage $50 trillion of capital. That $50 trillion is the core –– almost half of the free-floating capital in the world. And that is what the US calls a vital interest. So, when the US says we have vital interests in the world, that's what they mean.“And that's why we have military bases everywhere in the world, because these investors are everywhere. And any rivalries are undermined by our intelligence agencies, by the government, by military whenever possible. So, it just happens that governments work on behalf of capital.”So, if you’re wondering why the US has military interests in Ukraine or G

Steve’s guests are Charles Derber and Yale Magrass, authors of Who Owns Democracy: The Real Deep State and the Struggle Over Class and Caste in America. The concept of the deep state has been employed by different political ideologies, most recently the right under Trump. But its existence is real, and its service to the ruling class can be traced back to the founding of the US. Among other ideas, Charles and Yale stress the distinction between shallow democracy and the real thing. From their book’s abstract: “Large corporations, Wall Street, and other sectors of the capitalist class outsource day-to-day governance to the mainstream political parties, which can compete vigorously and create a credible veneer of civil liberties and electoral democracy, disguising and legitimating the deep state. But it is a “shallow democracy,” since the deep state sets boundaries on policies and choices to serve itself. It also denies a universal franchise and obstructs the voting rights of people of color, the poor, and ot

When people reject the concept of degrowth are they suggesting society continue to allow capital to ravage the earth? Are they saying the countries of the global North should continue exploiting and extracting from the global South? Are they pushing for more growth? Steve’s guest, Erin Remblance is an Australian researcher and activist who was spurred into action six years ago when the IPCC released their special report on global warming of 1.5°C. Since then, Erin has been creating courses, events, and materials that address the crises and work toward solutions. Erin and Steve discuss degrowth, a planned reduction in energy and material throughput to maintain ecological balance. (Throughput, for those unfamiliar with the term, is defined as “the amount of material or items passing through a system or process.”) The episode goes into the systemic issues of capitalism, which increasingly commodifies all areas of our lives in its relentless pursuit of growth. “The gross national product does not allow for the

**Find a transcript of each week’s episode on our Substack, where we also offer links to resources discussed in the interview. Subscribe now at https://realprogressives.substack.com/ Daniel Conceição is back to discuss the social damage of rentier capitalism and the potential to address it through the insights of Modern Monetary Theory. Rentier capitalism derives profit from ownership and manipulation of assets rather than through productive activity. While industrial capitalism also creates inequality, rentier capitalism, or rent seeking, exacerbates the division.  State-controlled money creation could nullify some of the speculative advantage of rentiers by directly funding critical public services, such as housing and healthcare. It may not be the ultimate answer, but it’s worth looking at. Daniel and Steve discuss the importance of overcoming mainstream economic fallacies that serve the interests of the financial elite. Daniel Negreiros Conceição did his undergraduate studies

**Join us Tuesday evenings for Macro ‘n Chill, an informal gathering where we listen to and discuss this podcast. Register here for our September 10th session https://events.teams.microsoft.com/event/29d4cc27-0123-4885-aaa8-6ff95947498d@7d53fbd0-6b43-4143-9400-6b0b36a25e55 Steve’s guest is Nolan Higdon, an author and expert in media literacy. They discuss surveillance in education, which Higdon covers in his book, co-authored with Allison Butler, Surveillance Education: Navigating the Conspicuous Absence of Privacy in Schools.Surveillance capitalism, which emerged in the late 20th century, profits from datamining, largely without public awareness. Nolan emphasizes the increased intrusion into schools, particularly following changes to FERPA laws in 2012 allowing private tech companies to collect and use student data. The discussion highlights the false sense of security offered by the surveillance tools as well as the biases ingrained in AI used in education.The topic takes on special sign

Macro N Cheese brings you another twist. A couple of months ago, Steve appeared as a guest on 1Dime Radio in a two-part series that we’re now presenting as a single episode.  Tony has been on our podcast several times, now Steve is on his turf. The result is a productive meeting of the minds. He and Steve both view the world through a Marxist lens, and they both agree Marxists need MMT.   The discussion goes into the American Revolution as they consider the possibility of democracy in a modern capitalist system. They examine bourgeois control over politics and economics. They look at the limitations of capitalism in meeting society’s vital problems and talk about the devastating effects of privatization. They compare a UBI to a program of universal basic services and agree there’s no contest.   Tony runs the YouTube channel "1Dime" and the podcast 1Dime Radio. On his main channel, 1Dime does video essays and mini-documentaries tha

Let us never become immune to shock and outrage over the US government’s failure to guarantee its citizens a safe clean water supply. We must be outraged by the power that private players hold over us all with the blessings and collusion of officials whose titles suggest they should protect us. Investigative journalist Jordan Chariton has been reporting on the Flint water crisis for nearly a decade. His newly published book, We the Poisoned, examines how systemic governmental failures, abetted by municipal, state, and federal authorities, and complicit media, combined to allow the Flint catastrophe. Jordan talks to Steve about the devastating effects of neoliberal privatization schemes, driven by financial incentives and aided by powerful interests including Wall Street, which resulted in the use of untreated water from the polluted Flint River in a city already suffering from decades of economic decline. Privatization transformed public utilities into profit-driven entities, neglecting critical safety and q

The 2024 fictional film “Civil War” shows an America that has been fractured into armed factions. It’s not the dystopian fantasy that interests us here, however, it’s the collapse of the currency! In the movie, the US dollar has lost its value, like the fate of Confederate money after the (real) US Civil War. With his imagination piqued by the film, Steve asked Brett Scott, author and monetary theorist, to help us think about the dynamics of commerce, currency, and systemic forces in times of societal collapse and global capitalism. Brett and Steve look at historical cases like Zimbabwe's hyperinflation and Ireland's banking strike. They discuss barter systems, mutual credit, dollarization, and informal credits. The conversation delves into broader themes of pre- and post-capitalist markets, moral logics within economies, and the systemic nature of global capitalism. Highlighting the inadequacy of simplistic elite-blaming narratives, they advocate for understanding economic interdependence and discuss Mode

“I was still a true believer, but doubts were starting to creep in at a certain point when you saw a large segment of our coalition cheering the brutal death of Rachel Corrie under a Caterpillar D9 bulldozer. And then, you know, a month later, cheering for the death of Tom Hurndall who was killed protecting a Palestinian child from Israeli snipers and was shot in the head by an expert marksman looking through a scope.” Jonathan Kadmon is on the leadership team of Real Progressives and writes for the website. He also helps put out this podcast. Today, however, he is talking to Steve about his vast knowledge of Zionism, Palestine, and US support for Israel. Jonathan was raised in a Republican household and became a passionate supporter of Israel during his college years, when he was given training and taken on trips by powerful players in the Israel lobby. After growing up a Jew in the South, he now became part of a powerful community and embraced it with pride. He talks of his experiences and describes his i

In June, Real Progressives hosted a webinar with Carlos García Hernández on his book, Fiat Socialism: Achieving the Goals of Socialism Through Modern Monetary Theory. After hearing his Macro N Cheese interview last year, we wanted to open the door for our volunteers to ask questions and engage with Carlos on this topic. He is an important voice applying the insights of MMT to socialist theory. “‘Fiat socialism’ is my name for an open and prosperous society ruled by the principles of the Modern Monetary Theory and functional finance.” In talking about his book, Carlos laid out the goals of fiat socialism: Full employment Full and prudent use of material resources The guarantee of the five essentials to every citizen: food, housing, clothing, health services, and education Social security at all major exposed points in the social structure (eg, old age, sickness, accident, temporary unemployment, and childbearing) Labor standards, to be assured by labor unions This episode includes his presentation followed b